I have a journal with a long discussion on fA here where many different users on both sides of under/over weight spectrum feel about this situation.
Normally, I keep my mouth shut. But a very dear friend of mine is striving to provide a project that would promote body positivity for any size, shape, or weight for women mostly due to the fact that that is where-in the market lies.
However, there was a user who felt the need to put in a very unnecessary, snide comment toward this situation, and I felt that it was unfair as the artist in question was in the same demographic she was insulting, as were a lot of people whom were deeply hurt by such a comment that wanted to help promote this very project.
- Warning - this is a very long conversation. It is a long read. However, due to the coward blocking me before I could respond, it was a very open-shut conversation and ended sharply on my note.
- I am not posting this to cause drama, or to insight a riot. I’m posting to show the ignorance that most people who body shame under the precedence that ‘overweight/underweight is unhealthy’ and show that such a thing is not okay in any way shape or form.
- This is my opinion on this particular incident, as I’m sure the comments will be deleted on the original site, but they will not be deleted here to show the ignorance of people.
“the only thing that moved me to comment however, was the positive body image remark.. ;;A;; i know its very important to love oneself and have a healthy self esteem, and whilst i know that many people come in all shapes and sizes, it is not healthy to be overweight.
i advocate this stance on both sides of the coin, the same goes for those that are underweight; but too many times have i seen images/drawings/paintings/photos of overweight people, encouraging those who are overweight, almost justifying it as an acceptable lifestyle/body type, when in fact its extremely dangerous and carries many many health implications.. its a very sweet gesture to want to make people feel comfortable with their bodies, certainly no one is perfect xD and we could all do with a bit more confidence in this judgemental society. but looking at how far nutritional science and medicine has come, it is all too clear to see the correlation between poor health and a body mass index that is too high ;;A;;
you are a popular artist, with over 3000 people watching, admiring, and being inspired by you, many of which i’m sure are females, and i just want to know you’ll be sending out the right message ;;u;;
To which I responded -
“Okay, so I fought with myself on commenting here fora little while now, but I have to say something.
One - -name omitted- can produce whatever sort of art she wants. If she promotes overweight / underweight body positivity, that is her business. You don’t have to buy the product or look at it.
Two - There is nothing wrong with promoting people who are overweight or underweight so long as they’re not morbidly so and healthy and happy. Body shaming or passive aggressive comments like this are a huge reason why people’s self esteem about themselves can drive people to suicide, and it’s comments like this that shows most of the ignorance of people who cause these issues.
Not every medical condition is correlated to being over or underweight, and throwing that around is a horrible way to put yourself in the position as someone who body-shames.
Being overweight myself, and not even with my own choice, a medical condition makes it impossible to lose weight, and is the reason why I gained it in the first place. It makes me, personally, feel unloved, unwanted, ugly, and disgusting because it’s “Not okay to be overweight for any reason” which is the message you are conveying with this very comment. Something I can’t do anything about without dangerous, if not very expensive surgery, is bad and shouldn’t be told ‘You’re still pretty, you’re still okay’?
There is nothing wrong with promoting either side because there are medical conditions that cause this and people who have no choice about the size that they are due to both genetics and the medicines they have to take to deal with mental conditions or other bone related illnesses or even for females, “feminine issues” that make things all the worse.
I’m not trying to insult you or anything, but I will let you know this, Body Mass Index is a cop-out to say that everyone has to be an average weight, average size, etc. You have insulted a lot of people with this comment, and as opposed to Loli being neutral, I feel it needs to be said. People are overweight for many different reasons, or underweight for many different reasons, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t healthy. This misconception is why people get worse because it is a passive aggressive form of bullying because “DIFFERENT. YOU’RE DIFFERENT. IT’S NOT HEALTHY BY THIS STANDARD THAT SOME RANDOM PERSON SET.”
I’m sorry but I had to say my peace.”
To which she responded -
oh my.. that’s quite an antagonistic comment you’ve written to me there D: I’m sorry but, I won’t rise to it in the manner I think you wish me to my comment was intended for my friend to read, and not you, so just as you claim certain things are not my business, it certainly is not your business to reply to a comment that was not intended for you/directly addressed to you ^^ especially when your tone is so aggressive. I hope you understand that your comment is quite rude in that sense dear.
she asked for opinions and I gave mine; I don’t expect that everyone will agree with me but whether people do or not does not matter to me in the slightest. it’s thoroughly naive to expect that someone is going to nod their head in agreement with every belief one has to express. you have to learn that before commenting on the internet or you’ll be forever plagued with people arguing that (rightly so) they have the right to express their opinion without having people like you bite at their ankles for it.
‘two’ is your opinion. it is my opinion that it is very wrong for people to promote or encourage body images that are unhealthy. for me, promoting obesity, or anorexia, is no different from someone promoting cancer. your argument is entirely void because that’s like me saying “well, xxxx is HAPPY that they have cancer so what is your problem? it’s people like you that stop people like xxxx from being pleased with their health and their body despite having cancer.”
again; it’s incredibly naive to pinpoint suicides on comments related to my own. please have some perspective ^^ this is one website, out of millions on the internet. not everyone has access to the internet. you are making a link between an innocent comment like mine and the kind of comments you hear from school bullies like “lose weight you fat pig!” those are the kind of comments that drive people to suicide. if you are so sensitive that you cannot cope with reading one comment on one small, far removed website on the internet, without spewing an angry essay in unwanted response, then I really must advise that you perhaps find another hobby. the internet is a diverse place and there are as many varying opinions as there are stars in the sky.
I never once said that every medical condition is correlated to weight. I will attribute ignorance on your part to that assumption. you keep saying ‘body-shaming’, yet I have not body shamed anyone? it’s terrible that you have a medical condition that caused you to gain weight, but it is not impossible to lose that weight with a strict diet and at least 30 minutes of strenuous cardio-vascular exercise a day. if you feel unloved, unwanted, ugly and disgusting, then again, it’s a shame, but it is not the fault of a comment you read on the internet. I feel like you are looking to blame someone for your misfortune?
there is everything wrong with promoting weight that is too high or too low, regardless of whether that weight has been caused by a medical condition or not. By your logic, it would be okay to promote anorexia because it’s been caused by a medical condition (an eating disorder which is classified as an Axis I disorder in the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental health disorders) despite it being dangerously unhealthy to the individual. similarly, genes are not entirely responsible for obesity, environmental factors also come into play.
you’re entirely free to make your excuses but body mass index is a viable method of determining whether one is at a healthy weight or not, I am certain that thousands of doctors and nurses are not using an unreliable system to measure their patients weight based on their height. I have not insulted many people dear, yours is the first comment I have received that seems to be vehemently against what I have had to say. you will find that underweight and overweight people have significantly higher risks of developing health related issues despite being considered ‘healthy’ at any given moment in their lives. again, to use your own words as an example, I could say “people are taking recreational drugs for many different reasons, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t healthy.” they may be ‘healthy’ right now, but down the line, serious issues await them if they continue to live that way.
there is no misconception; there is no passive-aggressive bullying. it is scientific fact that overweight and underweight people are prone to suffer from various health complications because of their weight. you seem very upset about all this, so let me finally clarify for you. there is no issue with ‘difference’, the issue here is health. If someone was smoking or promoting smoking, I would tell them it was unhealthy. If someone was obese or promoting obesity, I would tell them it was unhealthy.
you cannot rebuke scientific fact.
To which I finally responded, after they blocked me, and there is a name drop because I don’t fucking care.
Okay, *sukibelle you think you’re so cute to comment such a horrible rant at me and block me, I’m going to just state it plainly.
First, don’t call me dear. We are not friends, and you are not entitled to talk down to me that way because of it. You’re trying to talk down to me with little pet-names and you are not in the position to be using them to me. I’m not a child, and you will not talk to me as such, just as I don’t talk to you as such.
You want an essay? Okay, I’ll give you an essay then. You directly insult me, don’t expect me to be as sugarcoated as you are.You may not have received a comment, mainly because no one wanted to start a huge shit-storm on this journal, but now you’ve gone and done it, when I simply stated that comments that you felt that you wanted to “make sure she was promoting the right message.”
Who do you think you are to think that she needs YOUR permission to promote what she feels is the right message? Who are you to tell her that being slightly over or under weight is unhealthy? The standards for “average weight” be it by height or by region is different, which is why clothing sent from different countries/factories fit differently in each store depending on region.
Being morbidly obese and anorexic to the point that you can not function daily is one thing, but promotion of acceptance of oneself and their differences is another, which was the point I was trying to make, and you completely took out of context. Also, Cancer is a completely different animal, and has nothing to do with obesity or anorexia due to the fact you can’t do much about cancer but receive treatment. It’s not a physically visible ailment except for Skin Cancer, or if there is a tumor or a mass growing on the outside. Body image is something that is a very gray-area subject, and your “scientific facts” are just something you shield yourself behind because you don’t like the fact that someone is too big or two little for your taste.
I did not write an essay, it was hardly an essay, but now I will because of the offensive and self-righteousness you feel you have to tell me to find another hobby and that “it’s the internet everyone has an opinion.”
I throw that back at you, just as I have an opinion that you shouldn’t abuse the amendment of free speech to passive-aggressively say that she has to draw a certain standard of body shape and a certain level of body positivity to meet your approval, you have the right to tell me to pretty much ‘lol troll’ which is what your tone and attitude has stated. You offended Loli, but she said nothing to keep a neutral tone because of it. You offended MANY people, but we have discussed it in private. And you will quickly find out who those people are soon enough as after I’ve discussed this most recent comment with them, they will no longer stay quiet. And you can throw as many facts about the BMI as well, when it’s completely incorrect. An athlete has a high BM because of muscle weighting them down, so they are considered unhealthy for it?
If a person is at a certain weight and healthy, then what right do you have to assume they aren’t? That is the point I am trying to make. Medical conditions cause a lot of the weight disorders and what have you that you’ve stated or tried to throw around like some sort of dietitian that I’m pretty sure you’re not if you’re on this little niche of the internet claiming to be friends with the artist and also claiming that science is something you can’t dispute, when there is plenty of conflicting evidence against what you’ve provided yourself. A person can be any weight they be through genetics, metabolism based or not, or just because they do or don’t like food, and still be healthy. Some conditions are associated with weight disorders, yes, but not as many as you’re over-exaggerating them to be. Diets are mostly associated with the health issues that are associated with it, such as diabetes, heart attacks, etc, though weight can attribute, though it would have to be such a drastic change that it would be on television.
I understand if you’d stated plainly what you meant earlier, which you didn’t, you just said overweight and underweight, which is a form of body-shaming but similar to the way of saying, “You’d be so much prettier if you lost/gained weight.” You continuously stated it’s unhealthy, when that is entirely not true in the least bit. If a person is at the weight they want to be and take care of themselves to a healthy diet and active diet, it is NOT your place to tell them they’re still unhealthy for it. It’s one thing if you can’t get out of the car without losing your breath, but your tone is obviously someone who has no idea what it’s like to be on the either side of the argument you’re trying to produce. You feel self importance because you have a few scientific facts on your side, while I have plenty on mine. It’s one thing if it’s just you think it’s visually unappealing, which is obvious from your attitude toward the entire situation and most of the underhanded-backing you have for your argument. You don’t care about the emotional state which can cause these disorders, and merely state that ‘fat or skinny is bad, you have to fit a standard or you’re unhealthy’ when doctors dipsute this very statement all the time. You do not have to fit the BMI in order to be healthy, you just watch what you eat.
As to your comment about how *I* need to lose weight, you need to check your privelage there as well. You are not my doctor, you do not know of my medical conditions, which consist of none of your business to tell me to work-out when I do, thank you very much. I’ve been flat out told that a surgery that is far too expensive for me to have done is the only way I can be at the “National average for my height” even though I eat right, and I do so daily. See, now who’s assuming.
You say you didn’t want to give the rise I wanted - I didn’t want to get a rise at all. However, had I wanted one, you more or less pretty much did it on your own with how rude you are, while trying to sugar-coat it. The emotional abuse from most of those that I’ve spoken with sounded just like you did, which is where the prior comment I made came from. Bullying, be it in sweet little disgusting arsenic laced cookies like your comments are or simply locking a kid in the locker because they’re not meeting some standard set years ago that doesn’t adjust to - medication taken, region’s food index, diversity in body shape, type, and height, country, state, and many other factors and test subjects not used. It’s a test performed on a small set group, and is supposed to represent the entirety of the planet? No, I call bull on that because no two bodies are exactly the same due to the very factors that were stated by myself earlier.
I wanted to inform you that your comment was rude, regardless how passive or watered down you tried to make it. You have no right to tell Loli that being overweight no mater how small or large the amount, isn’t healthy, which was what you were saying. You tried to start something by getting deep into the fact she wants to promote acceptance of the fact that people can’t all be held to the same national average or standard that not every or “thousands” of doctors or nurses use. Some still use it, but overall it is different in every state, every region, every country. Some countries think that we, as Americans, have the average set at near obese, while others might see it as anorexic. The BMI is an opinion, just like studies are proven as facts, they’re opinions from those who studied a very small or a very large group, but not every single body type on the planet. There’s no possible way to account for every kind of situations to say what is or isn’t healthy. What is good for one, isn’t for another.
Body positivity is not something you should regulate, it’s a form of acceptance. It’s to promote self-acceptance and show that you’re still beautiful. Yes, there are some with eating disorders that need help, but it is their choice what they do or don’t do. Not yours. Your entire argument is also void under the same logic that is is just an opinion.
Again I’m going to go ahead and say this - you can’t shame someone because they made a choice. You don’t go up to strangers and tell them their habits are unhealthy in public because you risk getting your block knocked off if they feel that their choice is none of your business, because it isn’t. It is none of your business to tell anyone to do or not to do what they want so long as they are not hurting anyone else in the process. Just as you have the right to feel the need to sugar-coat insult me in this entire “essay of a comment”, they have the right to smoke, they have the right to eat either a salad or a steak. They have a right to be vegetarian or carnivorious. It is not your place to insult anyone, regardless of how sickly-sweet you try and word it.”
In light of this rather long, and rather one-sided in the end conversation, I want to go ahead and say something that I realized not too long after posting these comments.
“To promote any sort of shaming, is a promotion of neo-nazism. To not allow diversity simply because you do not enjoy how it looks, sounds, feels, etc, is to say that being different in any form is wrong and against everything, and shouldn’t exist. People are allowed to make their own life choices, but you have no right to tell them that those choices are right or wrong, because every situation is different. It is none of your business to say that a woman can or can’t be fat, skinny, average, girlish, boyish, homosexual, heterosexual, asexual, or nonsexual. It is their right and their decision to do so. Just as you can’t say the same thing to men. Equality is what we, as a society, strive for. Promoting shaming of life choices (Body-shaming, slut shaming, sexuality-shaming, etc) promotes suicide, as well. As most of this shaming is telling them they have no right to feel that way and are an abomination. It is cyberbullying, and the worst form of it. People have no way of defending themselves, and self-esteem and younger, weaker minds, are more likely to simply give up with society ever accepting them. This promotes that the country and society, as a whole, is nothing more than a conformist skeletal structure, and no longer allows diversity in any form. Everyone must be a certain standard, otherwise they are unwelcomed in it. Even in the niches and groups of sterotypes, there is biggotry and exclusion still, because ‘different is bad’ and shaming is the key-note in it. People are scared of change, and in that aspect, supportive of the very logic that Hitler himself honestly promoted. You must be this type of person to be considered a person. You must be this standard, otherwise you are not worth anything. You must live by my rules, my standards, my everything in order to be anything. Sounds familiar to the shaming mentality in a scary way, doesn’t it?” - Myself
Just because you have the right to express your opinion to another person, insulting them with that opinion isn’t the way to do so. Your opinion is no longer an opinion, more of an insult and your attempt at playing a devil’s advocate.
People are beautiful no matter what their lifestyle, so long as they take care of themselves and aren’t hurting anyone else. It’s not your choice to make that decision for them, so shut your mouth.
Copied the entire post in case the original gets deleted.